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 Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path

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Holymage
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PostSubject: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:44 am

Rival Dynasties. The Advanced Melee map. While Balancing issues need to be addressed, the most obvious path to work on is Solo mode. Solo mode constitutes half the game (The other half kingdom). In fact it is likely that there may be more solo players than kingdoms. But surely killing the same creeps and harassing people with no true development is boring. So, What can be improved?

Idea 1: Simplification and Balanced itemization
Currently the shops are all spread around the map and follow no real theme. To solve this:
- Group shops together in a little neutral village.
- Separate Armour, Weapon, Potion and Misc merchants
- Make Melee, ranged and Caster equally attractive choices

Idea 2: Hero Activities ( Sub-goals / Quests )
What can a hero do? Well... at present moment they wander aimlessly killing. To create alternative Paths of progress is the Goal here.
- 2 Main Types of Quests: Item collection and Kill Quota
- A Hero can learn the ability to interact with item Nodes, and can collect random amounts of a resource from it, with the amount and quality of resource varying.
- A Hero can only learn 1 'Trade skill'
- Possibility for a hero to learn 'Crafting Skills', which create Weapons, Armour, and other Misc, consume resources. Exp is awarded each successful cast.
- Killing Quota Quests involve killing X of a monster(s)
- Quests award EXP and Gold upon completion. Possibly also Tradeskill EXP, where you can unlock new recipes and abilities.

Idea 3: Hero Progression System
While present in Kingdoms to a minor extent, Solos should have the ability to improve their hero and Customize it. This shall be done with a hero progression system.
An Example:
Chuck the Warrior is Level 10. He can now Undertake a difficult quest to become a Knight. Upon completion, Chuck will turn into the level 10 Knight, with a modified skillset and Greater stats. Also any children may also become this class.
At Level 20, Chuck has Another choice. He may decide to undertake the Quest to become a Paladin, a Hero with a strong Defense, or a Berserker, a hero with a powerful Offense. The Quest here is also Very difficult and it may take several levels for the Hero to complete the Quest. Once complete the Hero becomes the new hero, retaining its level.

Idea 4: More Itemization and Inheritance System
Items again. This time we shall look a the potential for item recipes, Quest rewards and Legendary items. Legendary items will be unique and very difficult to obtain.Also more items with power that scales with the level at which it is to be acquired (Due to costs or otherwise) and a Greater variety of items (Such as Necklaces, Rings, Robes etc).
But Items is a Common thing. What is unique about RD? It is AGE. Age, where heroes can Die. But thankfully, You can raise an heir. However for a solo hero restarting at level 1 would be VERY painful. So we need a way for a player to retain levels but still keep with the age theme. Enter Inheritance.
Bob is a level 15 Kinght. At a rate of 80% Inheritance ( Upgraded at a NPC, Player house, or other) the new child will Be able to be born as a level 12 Knight ( As the Knight quest was completed and 80% is a decent inheritance rate ) and he might gain a percentage of Trade skills. Inheritance level will then reset (Maybe to 60%).

Idea 5: Player Houses
Oh yes, A hero needs a place to live, and store children. Houses are destroyed as a child is born. Houses can store the hero in the daylight hours. Houses are either Tanky or Invulnerable. You can only have 1 at a time. Houses can be upgraded so your next child retains more of your original Hero's Experience.

Other Hero related Ideas may follow. Enough Typing for now. Map Ideas and issues can also come later.
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:00 am

Well for one you do not realise that if a solo is to settle down the kingdoms can send a large force to either destroy or camp it if it is invunrable. The same issue with the shops they can be simply camped until a hero has to go there to get whatever. (Unless there could be wandering merchants who are invisable to kingdoms then the only task would be to find them.) To fix this you need to make your idea more mobile for the solos. However, I would suggest if you were to change class that mabye you would change back to a level 1 hero with a different skin. Also, Unless Dj0z makes the map even BIGGER solos can't really be safe. They need to be extremely faster or have a better hiding system. Like an etherrealm spell, but they would be able to walk through trees and stuff that would go until they run outa mana. Yet, this is pretty good thank you for commenting. Now mabye Dj0z will approve of this!
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Sun Sep 06, 2009 3:21 pm

Here i am Smile
Unfortunately my forced heavy schoolworking week has started already and i'm about to go to a mate's and learn hundreds of lines of various things.
So i'll just comment shortly:

1) the approved ideas:
-Inheritance of XP WILL be made soon, i don't know too much about the rate though.
I was thinking about just reducing level by 1 but a percentage around 50% makes it better: late heroes do not start at level 30 and it makes it worth using your Kings during their life, since if you don't, you would lose 50% (for example) of your XP at each generation passing.
So with that system you'll have to overcome the generation xploss. Still better than the the current back-to-level-1 thing.

-What Holy said about items, atm we need a legendary shield, and more legendary items for archers and mages (warriors have 3..) but that is more content completing than an actually new concept;

-There will be enough villages for kingdoms to be unable to retrict their use too much. it might become abit more of a hide-n-seek game, though, which is for the best Smile .

-The concept of quests.

-The concept of a place where solos can rest for real. However it's not gonna be a non-moving house, for reasons stated by silent.

2) I'm not too sure about letting heroes craft items, sicne balancing that part could be tricky, but they surely need something to do with their free time.
The question is what.
Keep the brainstorm going!
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:20 pm

Atm it's killing creeps...
I'd go with mage (they do quests)
Quests like... escorting a neutral dynasty's king to somewhere, deliver items from a shop to another etc.
Would make it more like rl and they'll do something entertaining... hopefully. After all, camping creeps isn't the thing you'd like to do for 10-15 mins (till you get strong)
Smile
I'll think about more later, if you like the idea of quests Smile
Btw you forgot to tell me how to copy heroes at D2 lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:56 pm

In response to the counter-argument of Silent, The levels should NOT go back to level 1, unless you intend on having a hero forget all old spells and be practically vulnerable for a few levels. I also believe heroes are limited to two spellbooks, so you cant just dump spells there either. On topic of Houses, A hero should be able to defend their home to an extent. The home might also have a degeneration aura or give positive auras to the owning hero. A moving house is great, but then It'll just be hidden until each successive child is born. Well... There is the alternative of having an off-map location to research inheritance and having the spawn point in a selected discovered town. My idea will aim for 4-9 Towns. Camping is possible... But structures cant be built in the town due to its terrain (tiles) and while camping with units is possible, a hero should be able to defeat them eventually. Else quest at another town.

In response to Dj0z, Its not too difficult to balance a crafting profession. Just use existing items and a few added. The costs of the items in materials should be greater or equivalent anyway. The other activity to participate in as mentioned is Gathering. You can only have one skill, which will balance exp gains. If you really dislike the idea of a home then a hero can alternatively rest in a village.

In response to Burning_Iegion, allow me to elaborate on quests. Main types of quests include item collection (Requires a gathing skill), Unit killing, Escorting, Delivery(FedEX) and A hybrid type combining several and most likely used in legendary weapon acquisition and Class Upgrades.

Also, with my current model, Delivery Quests and Tradeskills reward more gold than plain pvp killing, but PVP kills give greater EXP. However, If you die you would lose alot of EXP unless you can fund a child with a high inheritance rate. Possibly also a Gold loss per death, where the Gold retention cap can be upgraded. Assume that the Gold was 'Banked' for the successor. You can achieve the elimination of a Solo when: A) The successor is killed in x time after its creation and/or B) The Player has run out of money to fund a supply of Successors.
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:07 am

Rawr I get teh FedEx every single day so if solos deliver me in RD too it'd get annoying xD
Item collection?
If kings have class upgrades it would get too complicated... And, atm it's perfectly balanced, a pro empire can lose to a noob solo at start but at end a pro solo can lose to a noob empire xD. (That made no sense...)
Honestly, I dislike the crafting idea cause kings would be like... too smart... you see, not all kings can fight a whole army (no king can, that's what isn't very realistic in RD Neutral) but if he can also craft weapons... Solos would get op.

Atm as solo I'm beating some empires late game and empire should pwn late game. If I could craft weapons then I wouldn't need to go to another shop, wait for cd or gold. Since, as you said it would require materials and usually as solo if you have a fishing mechanism you also have tons of materials...
Off to bed.

EDIT: Sorry, empire=kingdom.
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:10 am

My model revolves around the concept that Solos and Kingdoms of the same skill level are roughly EQUAL through the whole game.
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:21 am

Can't happen Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:34 am

To address your issue before people misunderstand. Crafting takes materials, or items. These can be bought or collected. You CANNOT however have gathering AND crafting skill. Also, gathering will be limited by Inventory space, Ability harvesting Cooldowns or Resource nodes which can only be accessed once or twice a day. My model revolves around perfect and harmonious balance, with a maximum imbalance level of around 10-15% My model will ensure that you CANNOT acquire unlimited gold, as rates of resource collection will be slowed by time taken to collect, cooldowns, returns to town and the like. Heroes are allowed to be geniuses. Also on the topic of realism, a hero CAN fight an army due to superior weaponry and training. Last I checked, a soldier with a machine gun and unlimited rounds, with his back in a corner can defeat 100s of unarmed civilians. Think of the Aztecs and Spanish. Also you can use the Magical enhancements of items excuse to explain supernatural abilities of heroes.
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:53 am

Seems like we're going somewhere.

I don't like too much the crafting idea though, since i want the amount of items of a type to stay relatively low for balance, performance and simplicity reasons. However it could be limited to solo-oriented item types such as invisibility potions (so that they get better) or other things of that taste, rather than swords getting better for example.
That would be called apothicary class or w/e. Though for potions specifically, i rather give that kind of skill to the upcoming Alchemy techtree heroes, because i hardly see what abilities i can already give them, so any that fits their techtree should go to them. Others are much easier to find skills for.

With the design and abilities of -solo houses, seems like it's gonna be doable, looking at what we're finding in this brainstorm. I actually start to find it entertaining for a concept, but it still would remain a camping tent, something that can be moved.
Or it could come with abilities making you able to invis it until an enemy comes within XXX range of it. And you would improve that ability as you level up. ("pro hider: your house can remain unseen except at melee range. Even then, it wouldnt show on minimap, and would re-hide as soon as they get 500 range away. YOU ARE MANUS!" lol)

And for the heroes beating armies (not even considering weapons), honestly i don't find anything weird with it. While life is not an american action film :p highly skilled people can beat many low skilled people, if one after the other. Try going and beating a kyokushin sensei with one friend, one by one in a line lol.

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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:40 am

I'll make my ideas even clearer, since you are asking.
The Crafting can go, I guess, but harvested materials will be reduced to a gold and exp source then. But to make it more interesting areas should be richer in one resource than another, and exp and Gold gained should increase the rarer the material is in that area. No item creation whatsoever in this case, including potions. Potions should be relatively low cost anyway. There should also be 4 main hero classes, as there are 4 islands, and you can have a school of that class placed on the map. I can think of Mage, Archer, Warrior and Creature (vampire). From these basic classes you can learn new jobs (ie. Archmage, Ranger, Knight, Elder Vampire). Also I realize that the house is a debated topic. I also realize that Vampires will find it very boring to be housed for so long. We can remove house concept, use my other concept and have vampires weakened but not killed by the sunlight.

If you recall my alternative was a place off the map which holds a researcher for inheritance rate, gold retention and possibly other things. Houses would pollute the map and make heroes even harder to catch at this rate. A hero can instead rest in a village.

Now, items. If we are to limit items in exchange for a focus on skills we need items which make a unit versatile. Such would include potions of healing & mana, POSSIBLY invisibility potions, Haste potions, Blink scrolls, wards, Stunning scrolls, attack speed potions, Hero pinging scrolls OR omniscience potions etc. Heroes will then also move from item based to more level based strength. Also on a side note solos should get a bonus to exp gain or something as otherwise a player with decent micro can then use his king to be the power of a solo.
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:32 am

Hmm since i just made a new version, with relatively important changes, i invite you to try it out and maybe update your suggestions Smile .

But for what i have to tell already, Solos already get unbuyable benefits that make them superior to Kingdom Kings, when they are both at the same level, such as extra skill points, and extra stats. So while they might level up as fast as a Kingdom's leader if he focuses on xp gathering, they will still be at a decisive advantage.

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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:09 am

Hmm... when I think of it, I really don't understand why you actually talk about exp since they don't get stats when they level (they only get a skill point)
As dj said, they get extra skill points so level wouldn't matter... or do they get an extra skill point only when they level? I don't think so cause when I played solo it seemed as if I get skill points suddenly... Yeah...
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:11 am

Oh, there's no stat gain? My model assumes stat gains per level which increase per rank of class.
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:29 am

The only stat gain for heroes is intel, when they age up, and when they level up, since both those events assume thay have gained some wisdom and mental force. This gives a very slight advantage to mages, but it is not much noticeable.
Note that in the fantasy lore, wizards grow more powerful as they age up while others relying on strength and agility suffer the opposite fate. But they all die in the end anyways.
Other than that, the only stat gain currently is what solos get at start.

The extra skill points go as follow: every 3 levels, solos get 2 skills points instead of one.

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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 10:19 am

Wow i'm actually kinda lost.
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:17 am

You mean?
It gets a bit confusing lol...
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:26 am

Same thing I guess.
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:12 pm

Smile I don't really get the crafting idea... Only chieftains should be able to do it since they have a hammer xD
But why would you craft it instead of buy?
And I usually get dragon blade at lvl 3 so if I could craft the other items I'd attack before a kingdom has even made infantry... : |
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:22 pm

Craft would make getting the super weapons longer. First you make two recipies then combine those two recipes to get the last one. It would make you travel around getting stuff to make this which would make you not want to attack people. It is more of a diversion to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:57 pm

Maybe... but sometimes when you're solo you have to wait for gold and in the meantime you can make items so it becomes like 1.5 faster Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:25 pm

Maybe and by the way what is so good about the middle. I mean it doesn't even have spawning monsters. Atleast Dj could put some stronger monsters who level you up faster and give more gold and stuff. Even if it isn't important to kingdoms it can be important to solos. I mean you can even put a monster that is hopeless to defeat until 2 heros are level ten. He could make it only accessable to solos or nobody once it is defeated. It could drop an item that lets you like have 3 heros and whoever is holding it is doesn't age. Like the item could be Water from the Fountain of Youth. Have a giant water elemental guard it super strong, but killable. To kill it you have to first destroy each minor boss unit on hill.(have portals take you to a duel area)The last thing you have to do is kill all nests and dens on the hill. Then Open a portal called cave to the fountain of youth. Go in it would be a duel area for the giant water elemental. Or atleast just add some stronger creeps.
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:35 pm

Quote :
Maybe and by the way what is so good about the middle. I mean it doesn't even have spawning monsters. Atleast Dj could put some stronger monsters who level you up faster and give more gold and stuff.
Well the best monsters (for now) are already in the middle, and they already respawn (look at the eggs, infinite hydras). Thay already give the most gold and highest xp from creeping.
But i think i will put the main, biggest neutral town in the middle instead, this way it will be both equally accessable by everyone, and important. Biggest does not necessarily mean big, btw.

About new creep ideas, keep them coming. I'll need some to fill a couple areas when i redo the terrain. Heck, make a new thread about them.
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:41 pm

You could leave RD as a advance melee and take out -solo and make a map just for solo like gameplay. You would be able to balance better, create a more interesting and suitable terrain for the gameplay, make more interesting quests for the game, won't have to worry if what you do affects the balance of kingdoms and solos, and much more. I would rather quit editing solos in RD and leave it to what makes it shine.(the advance gameplay) Then make a game with same mechanics that make soloing in RD so fun. Last put things that will act like kingdoms and constantly threaten you as you make your way to kill all the other hero players. Or put four kingdoms of whatever dynasty name and this will be the kingdom you work for. When the Kingdom's king dies game over. Just saying it is easier to make two different games than it is to put two different games into the same game and be balanced and all that. To me all solo is... is a way to get stronger heros then run and destroy a nooby RD player and take his empire then become an empire with stronger heros.
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PostSubject: Re: Rival Dynasties: A Hero's Path   Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:18 pm

Quote :
Or put four kingdoms of whatever dynasty name and this will be the kingdom you work for. When the Kingdom's king dies game over.
Would you like to be a pro solo and play with a noob kingdom? His king will die and you'll lose.
Solos shouldn't rely on kingdoms for survival.
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